Card Craps Oklahoma

The Oklahoma version of Card Craps uses two 54 card decks with cards representing each of the die faces, one through six, with nine of each face in the deck. The stick man deals the cards, asking the shooter how many cards to burn before turning over the next two cards to count as the roll. The shooter may burn either one, two or three cards. Oklahoma casinos OK'd for craps, roulette Officials hope to replicate Las Vegas-style experience by John Magsam September 2, 2018 at 2:15 a.m. A roulette wheel spins at Cherokee Casino & Hotel. The large craps tables take about 130 square feet of floor space and come with all the associated equipment you will need and two dealers in uniform for 2 1/2 hours of playing time. Our large craps tables they are nearly 9 ft long and will accommodate 12-14 players they come with 2 dealers and need about 130 sq feet of floor space.

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I made the mistake of making a pass line bet in craps after a point was established. The next roll was a seven and I thought I won but the dealer said I lost. Can the player make a pass line bet after a point is rolled? What should have happened?

Yes, you can make a pass line bet at any time. However, you give up the come out roll, which twice the chance of winning as losing. Making a late pass or come bet is called a 'put' bet.

Marty from Houston, USA

There are lots of them. Many casinos give free gambling lessons in the mornings when things are slow.

After reviewing your section on house edge in craps, I am very confused about two different calculations. The discrepancy lies with the Place 5 or 9 and Buy 5 or 9. I cannot understand how the house edge could be greater on the Buy 5 or 9 when it pays more than the Place 5 or 9. For example, $100 Place 5 or 9 pays $140. $100 Buy 5 or 9 pays $150 - $5 commission for a total of $145. The house edge on a Place 5 or 9 is 4.00% and a Buy 5 or 9 is 4.76%. How could the Buy 5 or 9 house edge be greater than the Place 5 or 9 when it pays more money and both bets have the same behavior? Thank you for your time.

You seem to be forgetting that the 5% commission is taken off the top and the player doesn’t get it back if he wins (except some casinos give it back on a buy 4 or 10 bet). A $100 place bet on 5 will get back $100+$100*(7/5) =$240 if it wins. If you bet $100 on the buy 5 the 5% commission will reduce the bet to $95.24. If the bet wins the player will get back $95.24+$95.24*(3/2) = $238.10. The place 5 bet returns an extra $1.90.

How is the house advantage at craps calculated? If you PLACE 6 for $6 36 times you 'should' win 5*$7 =$35 and lose 6*-$6 for a lose of $1. Or a per roll lose expectation of ~$.03 which on a $6 bet is only .5% Everything I read gives the house advantage as ~1.8% on this bet. Where is my thinking faulty?

Good question. When the house edge is quoted as 1.52% on place 6 bet, for example, it is per bet resolved. In other words it is assumed the player leaves it up there until a 6 or 7 is rolled. However if the player’s intent were to leave it up for one roll only the house edge would be 0.46%.

I’m getting ready to go to Vegas and it has been a few years since I have been there, I know Binion’s used to be the best place to play craps, however I understand since the Harrah’s takeover that it no longer holds true. Could you please tell me the best places to play craps are?

I don’t think the takeover had any effect on the craps at Binion’s Horseshoe in Vegas. Although they used to offer 100x odds they ended that long before the federal marshals shut them down earlier this year. The best odds in Vegas can now be found at the Casino Royale (between the Venetian and Harrah’s), which offers 100x odds.

I’m walking through a casino and see a craps table with a shooter winning lots of money. I feel lucky and want to place a bet. What can/should I do? Do I have to first make a pass line bet? Can I make a come bet? Can I make either bet with odds? Or, do I wait until the next round of play?

First, it doesn’t make any difference that the shooter is making lots of money. Your odds are the same on an ice-cold table. The past does not matter. However if you are going to play then wait patiently for a come out roll. Never make a pass bet after a point has been established.

In craps, after a point is established for a come bet, where should you place the chips on the table to signify you want to bet the odds?

There is no particular place. You have to give the chips to the dealer and tell him to put them on the odds. For example assume you make a come bet and the next roll is a nine. The way I do it is I wait until I get the dealer’s attention, put the bet anywhere he can easily reach it, and say 'odds on the nine.'

Normal Craps are not allowed in California. Here many casinos are using cards to act as dice, using A,2,3,4,5,6 to act as the 6 sides of the dice. I would assume by using multiple decks it would alter the odds. (i.e 4 decks = 16 aces, 16 2’s, ect.) Does this favor the house as in blackjack.. or does this favor the player? The player could bet at higher or lower numbers based on the half of the cards out of the shoe before a shuffle(assuming a mid shoe shuffle).

You’re correct, dice alone can not determine the outcome in craps. There are various ways of using cards in place of dice and still have the odds exactly the same. One way is to use two separate decks, thus there is no effect of removal. Another way is to have a 7-card deck, featuring the numbers 1 to 6, plus a seventh 'double' card. The first card drawn can never be the double card. If it is then it is put back in and the process repeats from the beginning. If the double card is drawn second then it counts as whatever the first number drawn was. Regardless of how the casino does it I have never seen hard evidence of a case where the odds were different than if two dice were used. So I think you are omitting something from the rules.

Which casinos in Las Vegas gives the best odds on Craps.

The Casino Royale, which offers 100x odds. For complete playing conditions in Vegas please see my new Vegas craps directory.

I recently witnessed a situation at the local tribal casino involving protocol at the craps table that puzzled me, and I'm wondering if you clarify it for me. On his come out roll, Player ’A’ threw a number and established a point. For the next roll, the player next to ’A’ (Player ’B’) picked up the dice and shot. It’s not clear why he did this, or if he even knew ’A’. One of the other players objected, pointing out that ’B’ was not the original shooter. After much discussion and head scratching by the dealers and the boxman, the dice were passed to the next player (Player ’C’) who finished the hand (he eventually sevened out).

Was this the correct protocol for this situation, and if so, what is the logic behind it? If Player ’A’ for some reason simply didn't want to shoot any more, why shouldn’t he be allowed to relinquish the dice? If Player ’B’ picked up the dice because he didn't understand the game, or if the stickman mistakenly put them in front of him, shouldn't the dice go back to ’A’ to finish the hand?

I asked the Bone Man at nextshooter.com this one. Here is what he said.

If a player other than the correct shooter picks up the dice and rolls them, it should be a no-call, no-roll and the dice should be returned to the correct shooter. Though this is indeed the proper ruling, the boxman in some instances may allow for the roll if the result is to the favor of all or most of the players. In some instances, the result of the roll may not effect any of the player(s) wagers. Also.. Any player can request that the dice be sent to the next shooter to finish a hand. In such cases the same dice may be sent out or the new shooter can request new dice. Upon the completion of the roll, the SAME shooter can then shoot HIS/HER OWN HAND, thereby having more than one hand.

Hi - Great website! I’ve read lots of info here about tipping, but I’m still confused about how to tip for craps in particular. I’ve never played craps (in fact, have rarely played any table games at all) and am trying to get the rules down before my first attempt.

How exactly do I tip at a craps table? There are several people working the table. Do I put down a bet and they all share any winnings? How do I let them know the bet is for them? When, how often, and where should I place this bet? You said something on one of the pages I read about putting out chips 'for the dealers' -- do you just randomly toss out some chips and say 'for the dealers'? Do you pass them to a specific person? How much do you tip? What if I happen to think that one person at the table has been particularly helpful, while another has been scowling at my inexperience? Can (or should) you tip one more than another? Thanks for any help and for a great website!

You’re welcome. Thanks for the kind words. In my experience, most players make proposition bets for the dealers. For example, a 'two way yo' bet is split 50/50 between the player and dealers. To make this bet, a player will hand or toss the bet to one of the dealers and say 'two way yo.' However, all the proposition bets are sucker bets, which will cut down the value of the tip by up to 16.7%. As you said, I prefer to give the dealer the tip directly, as opposed to betting it. Before a come out roll I will try to get a dealer’s attention and then put the tip in front of him, saying 'for the dealers.' I don’t like making pass line tips for the dealers, because I’ve been goaded into tipping extra on the odds, which was more than I intended to offer. If you must make a bet for the dealers, I would put it on the field, saying loudly 'dealers in the field.'

To answer your second question, dealers are only obligated to share cash tips. Anything else they may keep for themselves. I asked about this at the Venetian and the floorman said dealers may accept personal gifts up to $100 in value. Acceptable gifts can be things with a close to cash value, including gift certificates and unresolved sports tickets. It was quietly added that if a player gave a dealer an envelope, nobody other than the player and dealer would ever have to know what was in it. Should you decide to give a specific dealer a tip I would suggest being discreet about it, putting it in an envelope, and away from the table.

I am going on vacation to England and the Rendezvous Casino in Brighton offers different payouts in craps than U.S. Casinos. Could you please tell me the house edge on the various bets that differ?

Place 4,10 - 9 1/2 to 5
Place 5,9 -7 to 5
Place 6,8 - 7 to 6
Any Craps - 7 1/2 to 1
Hardways 4,10 - 7 1/2 to 1
Hardways 6,8 - 9 1/2 to 1
Aces/Midnight - 33 to 1
Ace,Deuce/Eleven - 16 to 1

I just added a section to my craps section on the Rendezvous Rules.

Many Oklahoma casinos are now offering a version of card craps similar to the California game (like CA, OK has some very silly gambling laws). The version I’ve played uses a 54-card deck, with nine each of ace to six, where the 'thrower' calls 1 to 3 burn cards between throws. Suits don’t matter. The cards are not returned to the deck, so the odds of the game are not equivalent to a true craps dice game. Obviously, if a 5&4 is the come out roll, this hurts the odds in hitting it again since the same 5 and 4 are not returned to the deck. So, it might make even more sense to play 'don’t pass' at these tables. In addition, it does allow the player to partially count cards (e.g., laying additional odds on the 4 if very few small cards have been seen). How does not returning the cards to the deck change the odds of playing the pass or the don’t pass line?

This sounds very promising! If this is true, there would be lots of opportunities to count cards. I don’t know if they even allow them, but I think the best opportunities would be on the proposition bets. For example, the “yo” bet, which pays 15 to 1 on an 11, would have a 9.43% house advantage off the top of the deck. However, if no 5 or 6 appears in the first two rolls, the odds swing to a player edge of 5.80%. This same principle would apply to any two-number hop bet.

Recently, I was in a casino in Oklahoma, playing craps. There are a few rule changes to the 'normal' craps rules. Instead of dice, the casino uses a deck of 54 cards (Aces through 6). The stickman will ask you for a number between 1-3. He’ll then burn that number of cards and then put the next two face up. That becomes the dice roll. After approximately half to 3/4 of the deck has been used, a new deck is brought in and the old deck is shuffled.

Also, if you want to make a bet on the table, you’ll have to pay a dollar ante to the casino. You pay only $1 per come out roll. Once the point is established you can bet as much/little as you’d like without another payment of ante. The table limits are from 5 dollars to 300 dollars.

If the dealer went through 39 cards (out of 54) before re-shuffling the deck, you can count/see 26 of those cards. Previously, you’ve said that if there are a lot of 5s and 6s left in the deck, you would bet the 'yo 11' bet. Can you develop a more effective strategy and way for betting in this casino? I truly feel that this game is beatable. Would a count of high/low, like counting cards in blackjack, work? Thanks.

I still say hop bets, like the yo-11, are the way to go. Using chips, you could keep track of how many cards of each face are left in the decks.

With 26 unseen cards, if any one face had 6 left in the deck, you would have a 43.1% advantage on a hard hop bet (two of the same face), assuming it paid 30 to 1. With only 5 left, the house would have a 4.6% advantage.

The easy hops are even more exploitable. If the two dice sides in majority have at least 10 left combined, both with a minimum of 3 left, out of 26 unseen cards, then make an easy hop bet on those two numbers. If two numbers have 5 left, you will have a 23.1% advantage. If one has 4 and one has 6, you will have an 18.2% advantage. If one has 3 and one has 7, you will have a 3.4% advantage. All this assumes easy hop bets pay 15 to 1.

None of the above takes into consideration the $1 fee. As long as you are making large bets, it won’t make much difference.

The Choctaw Casino in Durant Oklahoma has recently introduced a craps table using cards. They use 48 cards, ace to six, from eight decks. The shooter calls a number between one and six. Then the dealer counts off that number and the next two cards are used to establish the roll. The cards are shuffled after each 'roll.' How do these rules affect the odds?

The odds change a little bit compared to craps played with dice, due to the effect of card removal. Regardless what the first card is, there is less than a 1/6 chance that the next card will be the same value. As an example of the effect, the house edge on the pass bet is 1.41% with dice, but 1.34% in this game. I indicate the house edge for all the bets in a new table at the end of my page on Card Craps, for various numbers of decks, including eight.

In craps, what is the general formula for the combined house edge of a put bet on a point of p, and an odds bet of o?

For points of 4 to 6: ((7-p)/(5+p))*(1/(1+o))

For points of 8 to 10: ((p-7)/(19-p))*(1/(1+o))

This question was raised and discussed in the forum of my companion site Wizard of Vegas.

'Anonymous' .

For the benefit of those who don't understand the question, books, videos, and lessons allege that it’s possible to beat the odds in craps with a careful toss that favors certain outcomes, namely lowering the probability of a total of seven to less than 1 in 6. I'm firmly in the skeptics camp on this one. I have yet to see any credible evidence leading me to believe that anyone can consistently influence the dice. There is much more money to be made selling books and lessons on how to do it than actually doing it.

On Sunday night, I took a date to the Winstar Casino in Oklahoma to do some gambling. I’ve never really done much gambling there besides playing poker. We didn’t have much fun at the slots, which seemed tight, so we decided to try the table games.

We started with roulette and went on to play blackjack. I knew in a vague way that the Winstar (like other Oklahoma casinos) charges an ante when you place a bet. But this was the first time I’d spent much time at the tables paying that ante on every hand of blackjack and every spin of the roulette wheel.

Being a gambling writer who’s especially interested in the math behind the games, I started thinking about how to quantify what this ante does to the house edge.

I had a math teacher in high school who insisted that I “show my work.”

That’s what I intend to do in this post. Calculate the house edge for the table games I played at the Winstar Casino, accounting for the antes.

What’s an Ante?

Card

An ante is a forced bet, usually in poker, that drives action to the game. In the Native American casinos in Oklahoma, it’s an amount you put up in addition to your bet that the house keeps whether you win, lose, or push.

It would be more accurate to describe this so-called “ante” as a fee for playing a hand of blackjack or for betting on a spin of the roulette wheel. The casinos love to use euphemisms to make a bad deal seem slightly better, and using the word “ante” instead of “fee” is just an example of this.

This has the obvious effect of costing you the amount of the fee multiplied by the number of bets you make. Even if you’re winning, the fees add up. They could easily be the difference between a winning session and a losing session.

How the Roulette Ante Affects the House Edge

The first weird thing about playing roulette at the Winstar Casino is that they don’t have an actual roulette wheel. There’s an animated roulette wheel that drives the results. That wasn’t THAT weird for me; I’ve played at plenty of online casinos that did the same thing.

But the online casinos use a random number generator program to produce their roulette results. That’s a computer program that generates thousands of numbers per second. When you hit the “spin” or “bet” button at an online casino, the RNG stops on whatever number it’s “thinking of” at that millisecond.

The roulette games at the Winstar Casino don’t work that way. They have a dealer with a deck of cards. The dealer scans the playing card into a machine, then the animated roulette wheel spins and lands on the space that corresponds to the card that was dealt.

I have no reason to think that the probability of the underlying game had changed. It was a standard American roulette wheel on the giant TV screen above the table. It had 38 possible results, 2 of which were green (the 0 and the 00). 18 of those results were black, while the other 18 were red, and so on.

The table limits weren’t unusual, either. $5 minimum on the outside bets, with a $500 maximum bet.

But I had to pay a $1 fee (the so-called “ante”) every time they spun the wheel.

I didn’t even realize that was the case until the dealer told me to put up the extra dollar.

How did that affect the house edge? Book of ra deluxe free spins no deposit fee.

Let’s start by assuming that we’re going to “spin the wheel” 38 times, and we’re going to get statistically perfect results. We’ll also assume that I bet on black every time.

This means that I’ll win $5 on 18 spins, and I’ll lose $5 on 20 spins.

On top of that, I’m going to lose $1 on each of the 38 spins.

I have $90 in winnings, and $100 in losses on the spins. Add $38 to my losses, and I wind up with a net loss of $48 over 38 spins.

That’s an average loss of about $1.26 per spin.

Since I’m basically putting $6 into action on every spin, an average loss of $1.26 per spin equates to an average loss of 21% of my bet.

That’s a lot higher than a 5.26% loss per spin.

In fact, that’s TERRIBLE.

Can You Do Anything to Lower the House Edge on the Roulette Games at the Winstar?

Here’s the thing:

I’m a low roller. (As you can imagine, gambling writers don’t make that much money.)

But if you have a bigger bankroll than I do, you can lower the house edge by betting more each time they spin the wheel.

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The fee for the roulette games (and the craps games, for that matter) at the Winstar Casino remains $1 regardless of whether you’re betting $5 per spin or $500 per spin.

What does that change the house edge to?

You do the math the same way, but the average losses as a percentage of the money you’re putting into action drop as you raise the size of your bets, as follows:

  • If you’re betting $5 per spin, your average loss per spin is $1.26.
  • If you’re betting $100 per spin, your average loss per spin is $6.26.
  • If you’re betting $500 per spin, your average loss per spin is $27.32.

This means the house edge at each of these levels is:

  • At $5, the house edge is 21%.
  • At $100, the house edge is 6.2%
  • At $500, the house edge is 5.45%.

Notice how at $500 per spin, the house edge is almost normal–normal being 5.26%.

But your sole goal shouldn’t be to get the house edge as low as possible. You should also consider your average cost of playing per hour.

The roulette games moved along at the Winstar at a good clip–about 50 spins per hour.

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To calculate your average loss per hour, you multiply the number of bets per hour by the average size of your bet, and then you multiply that by the house edge.

For a $5 bettor, this means you’re putting $6 into action 50 times per hour, for $300 per hour in total action. With a house edge of 21%, you can expect to lose $63/hour.

For a $100 bettor, you’re putting $101 into action 50 times per hour, for $5050 in total action. With a house edge of 6.2%, you can expect to lose $313.10/hour.

Craps Strategy Card

For a $500 bettor, you’re putting $501 into action 50 times per hour, for $25,050 in total action. With a house edge of 5.45%, you can expect to lose $1365.23/hour.

The big difference is between the $5 and $100 mark–you’re betting 20 times as much per hand, but the difference in the house edge is so great that your expected losses only go up by a factor of 5.

You’ll need to decide for yourself how much an hour of roulette is worth to you, but keep in mind, too, that these are long term averages anyway. Even if you’re betting $5/hand, you could come out a winner in the short term.

In fact, even though a lot of gambling experts eschew the Martingale System, Michael Bluejay wrote an excellent page about how the system does increase your probability of having a small winning session in the short run. This will, of course, over time, be balanced out by some large losing sessions.

(The Martingale System worked well enough for me Sunday night that I broke even at the roulette tables.)

What about the Blackjack Ante?

I’m going to look at the blackjack math a little differently, but I also should point out that the ante rules for the blackjack games are different. The fee changes based on how much you’re betting, as follows:

  • If you’re betting $5 to $99 per hand, the ante is 50 cents.
  • If you’re betting $100 to $999 per hand, the ante is $1.
  • If you’re betting $1000 to $1999, the ante is $2.
  • If you’re betting $2000+, the ante is $3.

The first thing I’m going to do when calculating the house edge for the blackjack (including the fee) is to look at the game’s edge based on the rules in place. This also assumes you’re playing with perfect basic strategy.

As it turns out, the rules at the Winstar blackjack tables are excellent:

  • They deal from 6 decks.
  • The dealer stands on soft 17.
  • No doubling after splitting.
  • No surrender.
  • You can double on any 2 cards.

With these rules in place, if you use perfect basic strategy, the house edge is only 0.56%.

But that’s not taking into account the 50 cent fee.

Here’s how we’re going to get to that number:

Let’s start with an expected hourly loss figure that doesn’t account for the ante.

When I was there, we only had an average of 3 players at the table–me, my lady friend, and usually one other person. (That person kept changing, but we hung in there for quite a while.)

According to the Wizard of Odds, I can expect 105 hands per hour at such a table. At $5 per hand, I’m putting $525 per hour into action.

Since I’m playing according to perfect basic strategy, my expected loss per hour just on the blackjack action (without the fee) is 0.56% of that, or $2.94/hour.

But I’m also losing 50 cents per hand to the fee. With 105 hands/hour, that’s another $52.50 in hourly losses. (I also get to add that to the hourly action.)

So with the fee, I’m wagering $577.50 and losing $55.40 of that.

That’s an effective house edge of 9.59%.

I don’t need to tell you that this has a terrible effect on what would otherwise be a great blackjack game.

What If You Increase Your Bet Sizes?

If you were paying attention during the roulette section, you probably already realize that if you raise the size of your bets, you can lower that house edge.

Let’s say you’re betting $99/hand instead. Now you’re putting $99 X 105 into action per hour, or $10,395. Your expected loss on that is $58.21.

You’re still paying $52.50 in fees, though, so your expected loss goes up to $110.71.

On total action of $10,447.50 in action, that’s a house edge of 1.1%.

Now that’s more like it. If you have the bankroll to afford this kind of action, it makes a lot of sense to bet $99/hand instead.

But here’s something interesting:

Watch what happens when you start betting $100/hand instead of $99/hand:

Your fee doubles. It’s now a dollar instead of 50 cents, which means that you now have $105 in hourly fees.

Your expected hourly loss besides that doesn’t change much. You’re putting $10,500 into action each hour instead of $10,447.50. Your expected loss on that is $58.80 instead of $58.21.

Add those together, and your hourly loss is $163.80 instead of $110.71.

So the house edge when you’re betting $99 is only 1.1%, but when you’re betting $100, it’s 1.54%.

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If you really want to drop the house edge, though, just raise the size of your bets to $999.

$999 X 105 = $104,895

0.56% X $104,895 = $587.41

$587.41 + $105 = $692.41

$692.41/$105,000 = 0.65%

If you have the bankroll to afford that kind of action, it’s worth doing. You’ll find plenty of casinos in Las Vegas which don’t offer a house edge that low.

You might even be able to get an edge at this kind of game with a card counting strategy, although I suspect most people don’t have the bankroll for that. Also, I have a feeling–and I’ve read forum posts suggesting–that the security at the casinos in Oklahoma frown even more on blackjack advantage players than the casinos in Las Vegas do.

Conclusion

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The fees (or so-called “antes”) for the roulette games and the blackjack games at the Winstar Casino in Oklahoma have a significant effect on the house edge.

In fact, if you’re a low roller, the best thing you can do is to avoid the roulette game altogether. If you do play roulette, try to avoid betting the minimum. Bet as much as you can comfortably afford, and remember that the house always wins in the long run anyway.

With the blackjack games, be careful with the amount you bet. The house edge can change dramatically between $99 and $100 per bet just because of the rising size of the fee.

You’ll find other posts in forums complaining about the antes at the casinos in Oklahoma. I’ll refrain from any histrionics here. You know what the deal is now, so if you want to play, that’s your business.

It does remind me of the old joke about the guy who plays in this lousy poker game. One of his buddies asks him, if the game’s so bad, why do you keep playing?

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Because it’s the only game in town, he replies.